I care for my family. I want them-- I'm going to cry.
Awww.
That's OK.
I'm 84 years old, and I am in the process of the settling of my estate when I am gone.
Get organized. Have a plan. Number one, put it down in writing.
It's very cool. You either hate it or love it. And now my daughter-in-law gets to live with it.
Jen, what do you think? You want it?
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[THEME MUSIC]
How to pass on your things without passing on family drama-- that's what we're talking about today. Hi, I'm Ally Donnelly, and this is Money Unscripted, a podcast from Fidelity. You've probably made a plan for your bank accounts or leaving stock to your heirs, but what about your stuff? It can be kind of uncomfortable to talk about this piece of the estate planning process, but our guest today says starting the conversation with your family while you are living is so important.
We're going to go through how to get organized and make an inventory of your things, how to try to make it fair. Do you need appraisals? Do you need to think about taxes? We're covering it all. But I want to first share my conversation with Irene Lord. From her decades in estate sales,
she's seen families pulled apart by what relatives want or frankly don't want or don't want to deal with. Her family's close knit, but she still wants to be proactive to head off any potential conflict and to feel the joy of knowing which of her things will live on with the people she loves.
I put all these items in the inventory.
And this one--
I think that's gorgeous. I think it's so fun.
Let's do $45.
Irene Lord is used to sorting other people's memories.
Really, really pretty.
The 84-year-old runs an estate sale business outside Boston with the help of her daughter in law, Jennifer.
Oh, my gosh, that is so great, ski tag and everything.
But these days, Irene, wife, mother of three, grandmother of seven, is thinking more and more about her own estate and making plans for the things in it.
I don't want my children to have any discussions after I'm gone. I'd prefer that they have the discussions while I'm alive, and we can talk about it. And everybody can be happy with the result.
Is discussions code word for fighting?
Yes.
She describes herself as a practical woman and doesn't care much about the things she's bought or collected over the years. But she does want to pass on cherished family heirlooms and a few other special things to her kids and grandkids without causing any family drama.
The things that are meaningful to me are things that belonged to my grandparents and my mother. I just live in hope that some of the children, some of the ancestors down the line might say, oh, gosh, my grandfather lived in New York City before the depression. And this came from his home. It's a way for me to stay attached to my family, and my family is the most important thing.
Ooh, this is pretty. Who gets this dressing table?
Oh, thank you, Ally. I'm afraid nobody wants the dressing table.
Aww.
On holidays or when you have events or birthdays and people come over, what do you do?
Well, we do what every other family does. We have a cocktail hour, and then we have dinner.
But what do you do when it comes to your stuff?
My stuff-- well, at the dinner table, I have begun to ask my children and grandchildren, mainly, what would they like? Did they have a particular interest in something? And if so, I would be happy to put their name on the object. And that way there would be no discussion when I'm gone.
Yeah. Pass the potatoes. Would you like that dish?
Right.
OK, so I definitely have more over here I need to tag. Perfect. Perfect.
Why do you think it is that people shy away from this conversation?
I think they feel very awkward. I know I did with my parents. And so there never was any discussion when it came time to divide up the estate. And I just think it's very awkward thing for children. They don't want to think of me as dead. Well, some days they probably do. Some days they probably-- but it's very hard for everybody. Not for me.
That's it, right? It's never hard for the person. So if they were sitting here and you thought that through, how would you guide them? What would you say? What advice would you give them?
It's an emotional thing, and some children are more emotional than others. I don't know how I could make them more comfortable except for to tell them that I'm comfortable.
The more conversations she has about her things, the more things are getting sorted. Irene's son would like this marble panther that has been in the family for generations. She'll pass her jewelry to her daughters but still needs to figure out how to divide it fairly. And then there's the grandchildren.
How old was she?
She was about 10 years old.
Yeah. And what happened?
Well, she was here having a snack. And she looked up at the wall and said, Renie. I would love to have that plate on the wall. And I said, what do you mean, Sam? You want it now? And she said, no, I would like to have it someday. So I said, well, let me take it down from the wall, and you can put your name on the back of it. There it is. And that's her handwriting.
It says, "For Samantha, I give this plate 6/1/06 XXXOO Irene Lord." That's pretty wonderful.
It is special. But she's special.
So she's in her 20s now. How does that make you feel?
Very good.
How come?
Well, because I know Sam will put that plate up, and she'll think of me.
And that gets you emotional.
Yeah, just because it's nice, and it's not about the thing. It's about the choice of wanting something of mine.
As for her other cherished things, she'll keep nudging them toward family at every holiday. She hopes they'll live on with someone, but either way, she'll quietly enjoy them the rest of her days.
I live with memories. No question about it. I'm a little spoiled that way.
She is indeed. Irene is so great. All right, I want to bring in Pamela Pirone-Benson to the conversation. She's going to help us figure out how to pass on our things without passing on drama or maybe how to help a loved one to do the same. She is an attorney by background and a trust and estate expert here at Fidelity. Pamela, welcome.
Thank you for having me, Ally.
I'm so glad you're here. So I was going through Irene's house with her, right? And I was thinking about my own family. And my mom is one of those people-- she's 85. And she will say, oh, my kids will just figure it out. You guys have this covered. And that fills me with such anxiety.
I wonder why?
What would you say to my mom?
It's great if the children can agree, but what if they don't agree, right? That's generally the problem. There's a couple of missteps or mishaps with saying, they'll just agree. So one is they may not agree, and then we have a problem on our hand.
Yes.
I recently spoke with a client who shared with me they were four close brothers growing up. And now only two of them speak over a collectible car because they felt like that was a connection to the dad. So I'm sure that father thought they would agree, right? It wasn't about value. It was more about the sentimental piece of having that piece of dad.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, yeah, not everybody always agrees. And then the other thing about agreeing is maybe you've got one kid who will take on the burden. They'll empty the house. They'll do the job. And the other kids are like, well, I still get the same thing that everybody else gets, and I'm not going to take on that job at all.
Yeah.
So how do you know what somebody wants if they don't want to be involved in the process at all? So agreeing is good in theory but doesn't always work.
OK, so I'm going to dig in. We're going to dig in to all of these things. But first, let's level set for a second.
Sure.
What's your number one piece of advice for passing on heirlooms?
Well, I would say get organized. Have a plan. The number one, put it down in writing. If you could give it away before you die, even better. But definitely put it down in writing because how is anybody going to know what your wishes are if you don't actually lay them out?
OK. So when you talk about having it all down in writing, putting it all down in writing, is this the kind of thing that would be covered in a will? Am I covering my bell collection as I give it away? Or is that not how you do it?
Well, there's a couple of different ways to do it, right? One, by will, you can do something with an incorporation by reference of something called a tangible personal property memorandum. What is that? That's a list of your stuff, right? Write it down.
Right.
But it's not actually in your will. It's outside your will. And then the executor at least has some kind of guideline to follow. That'll work.
Is there a difference between the more monetarily valuable things and the sentimental things?
Absolutely. There's definitely-- you have to think about taxes as well, right? If you're putting something down in writing, and you're leaving one person the Monet, and you're leaving the other person the picture that was painted by your grandchild, definitely a difference in value, too. So I want-- I think clients should really take a step back, evaluate what they have, put a list together. But then think about parody, right? Think about equality. Think about who wants what. A lot of times, if you have the conversation, you'll figure out that one person may want this, and the other person may want the other thing. So always good to chat about it.
So in theory, I get the take an inventory of all your things. But some folks might not do that. We saw Irene for her granddaughter put a piece-- or put a sticky on the back of a plate. Is that going to hold up, so to speak? And what does hold up even mean?
Yeah. So hold up, what does that mean? I would say in an estate, when somebody passes away, there's definitely an emotional charge to it for everybody. An executor has a responsibility to do what the person who passed away wants. So first, we have to think about, well, who is that person going to be? Are they involved? Are they one child versus the other? Are they independent, somebody who has no skin in the game, somebody that can just be objective and take a step back? So it should hold up, but it doesn't always hold up. My husband's family, what
they did was have an auction. They literally laid everything out and then talk about agreeing. If you bid on what you wanted and that's what you got. And at the end, if you wanted to swap, you swapped it out.
So did they actually have to pay money?
They actually paid the estate back, and they made it equal that way because things had different values--
Oh, I see.
--and take furniture, right, different kinds of things that had different value. But it took the emotional piece out of it. You want it? You bid for it. You buy it. It's yours.
That's really interesting.
Yeah.
That's kind of a lighthearted way to look at it, right? But these conversations can be tricky. I think about-- I would love for my mom to distribute things so that there's not the angst and not the fighting or whatever. But I also feel kind of strange talking to her about it. It feels a little grubby to me. So how can people have these conversations? And give me the perspective of the giver and the givee or the recipient, I guess that word is.
Well, the conversation has to be two ways first, right? If you're going to speak, you have to listen to what your children, your family, your nieces, and your nephews, whoever it is-- it has to work both ways.
Mom, are you listening?
Mom, we don't want to be dictating things.
Right.
We want you to listen back because that's really what's going to bring the family together. I always remember this family. The mother was so lovely, and she had this wonderful blue tea set that her three girls-- she had three girls, and all of them wanted it when she passed away-- $30,000 in legal fees later for a $5,000 tea set, had nothing to do with the money. Now, had that mom taken a chance to discuss with them, well, you take this, and maybe you get that-- and that's still something that we share memories with. So it would have been a better option to have the discussion up front and then listen and receive that information back from what they want. And then bring somebody independent-- Irene-- somebody else into the mix that can maybe be objective and try to remove the emotion.
Yeah. But you've also shared some tough stories. Not everybody's going to see eye to eye even with that.
They're not, and that's where I think the best estate plans sometimes fail, right? You can put it all down in writing. You can set up a trust. You can have specific instructions. But in the end, if you haven't had the conversation, or you can't find something, or you don't know what it is, that's another big part of this as well, right? Take an inventory. Maybe you say, I want so-and-so to have this dish. Well, what dish? Do you have a photograph, right? For expensive items, from a legal perspective, you often have to have that appraised, and that value then becomes part of an estate. So that's a very important piece of really thinking through how much it is, who's getting it, and what's going to happen to it.
From the child's perspective or other person in that person's life who is passing on their things, what are some conversation starters? What could I say to my mom so that she doesn't feel like I'm after her stuff? But I also want to-- I hold things dear and near to me.
I'm laughing because I have one client who said, every year at Thanksgiving, she sits down, and that's when she brings it up.
Mine does, too.
Hey, when I die-- I'm thinking, who wants to think about death over turkey, right?
Right. No, my mom will hand you something and say, just take it. Just take it. And that's problematic, too.
Yeah, it is because you want to take it because you don't want to hurt their feelings.
Or I want to take it because I really like it, but my sister's going to come at me.
Yeah, that's another problem, too. Conversation starters-- I would say always come from the positive, right? I want you all to be close. I want you all to always be a part of this family and remain close when I pass away. Why don't we have an open discussion? Hey, here's some jewelry. Lay it out. Was there any particular piece that you like? I've had a lot of clients do that over the years-- go through their house, look at different things.
What if the child's launching the conversation or other person?
Well, I don't think parents or anyone, an aunt, an uncle-- don't take that as offensive. If you've put somebody in this position to be your executor to take on this role, they might be really trying to get ahead of it to try to help ease the tensions. And we have to be mindful. If you have two sisters and you know they already don't get along, they're not going to be best friends when you pass away, right?
No, no, they're not.
You have to get ahead of that, understanding the dynamic between your heirs and then addressing that as well. That's where we talked a little bit before about bringing somebody
independent in. That's not a bad-- that's not a bad idea to bring somebody who has no relationship to come in and make an objective decision. But put it down in writing.
You said, executor there. I was really talking about any child in the family.
Anybody. Sure.
Is an executor automatically, or could they be named as the person in charge of your smaller stuff as well?
Yeah, generally in a will or a trust, there'll be a provision about tangible personal property, and the executor or the trustee is the one that legally becomes responsible. They become responsible to appraise it. They become responsible to safeguard it. What if you have something expensive and it disappears or there's caretakers in and out of the house? You become responsible watching over that. I've seen a lot of families argue over that where things start disappearing.
You mentioned trusts earlier, but I want to dig in there a little more. Tell me more about trusts in these situations.
Sure. A will, public. You can set up something called a revocable living trust, meaning it's revocable, and it's you. And you control it during your lifetime, so you don't feel like you're giving anything away. Some people don't want to give their stuff away before they die. It helps avoid probate, going through that public process of putting people on notice and people going to court and maybe seeing a list of the stuff had you put it in there. But that requires an attorney, and the most important thing is, is, again, you have to have a list and an inventory. But the assets have to be assigned legally to the trust with some kind of transfer document, so you'll need an attorney to help you with that.
So now let's take a different scenario, right? All this conversation so far has been while the person is living. What advice do you have for families who, when the person has passed and they need to divide up the estate and deal with all the things, but the person didn't map out a plan in writing?
Yeah, so I would say start with a family meeting. When I used to-- when I was in practice, I would have families come in, and we would sit down and have an open discussion. Trust your advisors, right? There's people that your family members or the person who died trusted. They may know wishes that you don't know. So definitely have a discussion. Try to see if you can figure it out and work it out. And if you can't, then we need somebody else to step in and help.
And maybe this is turning into a therapy session. But I have a big family, lots of different personalities, so it's fraught with emotion either way. What's your advice to us, the people who will be dividing up the things? What's your advice there?
Well, I don't know if you can diffuse emotion when you're dealing with the death of a loved one, so that's going to be very difficult to diffuse that. But try to come to an agreement. Have an open discussion. Don't have one person start taking one thing and the other person taking the other. Have an open discussion. Do an inventory. See what's in front of you, and then see if you could come to an agreement. I have some families that go and take different items, and then they'll swap them out. Or they'll involve their children, or nieces, or nephews, or somebody else as part of the family might step in. But it's very hard to diffuse emotion when somebody passes away. But the conversation's going to be the best part of it.
Yeah. But maybe-- but, again, if you've talked it through ahead of time, then you're not going to be as emotionally fraught if you're then dealing with it.
We do, but we have to realize not everybody's going to talk about this beforehand. There is a big-- there's sometimes a lot in our culture where we don't want to talk about death. And there's a lot of family members who don't want to hear about somebody dying.
Yeah.
So it's not always an option that we have to talk about it beforehand.
Yeah. I have to say, with my mom, I really-- it filled me with such angst to talk to her about what she wanted when she died. Did she want to be buried? Did she want to be cremated? And it took me a lot to build up to it. And my mom was like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. She had zero emotion about it.
My grandmother put little notes into different things. We would open a vase, and we looked in there. And there was a note that said, Aunt Anna. See, that was great. Why not?
Just like Irene did.
Sticky notes or have something in there already outlining it.
But, again, does that hold up? Generally speaking, from a legal perspective, maybe we say that's not legal, right? The executor can do whatever they want. But from a practical standpoint, it generally holds up where everybody would agree because there was something outlined beforehand.
You knew their wishes. Yeah. What if you don't want the stuff? What if there's this beloved bell collection but you're not interested?
Yeah. I always tell families to try to find a way to continue that legacy somehow. Recently had some clients share with me that their mom had a large-- it was actually their aunt-- had a large doll collection. And what they did is they found a charity overseas, and they sent the dolls there so that the legacy could continue because it's going to be very difficult to throw those out.
Yeah, yeah.
But sometimes, a lot of things go to the dumpster now, right? People throw them out. But find a way to continue that legacy-- again, conversation. Talk to somebody. See what they want to do-- works.
You've talked about parity a bit, right? But I want to dig deeper into that. So you're sitting down to divide things, and you're trying to be fair, equitable, dare I say equal. But some of the kids might not be in the same-- or other people may not be in the same financial situation. Some-- I want everything. I'm super sentimental, and I have a sister who's not sentimental at all. So how do you still make that fair?
Well, you have some families that can exchange monetary value for stuff, right? If I got your $1,000 checking account and you got the $1,000 painting, we could switch that out. But you have to have that conversation, and you have to try to agree again. But there's nothing that says you have to get one thing versus the other. You can work together as a family and try to remain equal.
The other thing is, too, if you know you have expensive items and things that are of monetary value and your will or your trust says, I want it to be equal, then you have to have appraisals. You have to have an inventory. You have to have a list because then nobody's really going to understand the value of something, right? A lot of times, families come to the table. They don't know that that particular painting was an antique that's worth X amount of dollars, and that could then cause strife.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, anything we didn't talk about that you want to say?
Well, I go back to the most important thing of making sure you've had the conversation if you can beforehand and then trying to put it down in writing.
And what's your overarching message for the person who's figuring out their estate in terms of what it will mean to your family if you do these things ahead of time?
Well, first of all, thinking through it, right? A lot of times, we have-- I meet with clients all the time that, oh, I'll just die in my sleep, and it's somebody else's problem. When somebody passes away, it is somebody else's problem, but maybe we have responsibility to not put it on somebody else but to make sure that we've tried to think through it a little bit. So that
preparation, that planning, that getting organized, all a big part of estate planning in general. But definitely don't forget your stuff.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Everybody thinks about the bank accounts, and the stocks, and the CDs. And a lot of times, the stuff goes by the wayside. So get organized. Have a plan. Put it down in writing.
And you could be saving folks a lot of pain.
Lot of pain, a lot of legal fees, a lot of emotional strife. You want people to get along when you pass away. You don't want your legacy to be argument over who didn't take the piano.
Yeah, OK.
All right.
Pamela, thank you so much. This was a great conversation.
Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
And thank you for listening and watching. If you have a question or an idea for an episode, we would love to hear from you. Email us at
[email protected]. And please like, follow, share wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Ally Donnelly. Thanks for being here. And don't forget. It's your life. Get your money's worth.
[THEME MUSIC]
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